Forum europäischer Spinnentiere

Bestimmungsfragen (Determination) => Spinnen Europas bestimmen (Determining spiders of Europe) => Thema gestartet von: Raffaele Falato am 2021-04-06 12:05:30

Titel: Tiny black and white spider => Meta menardi
Beitrag von: Raffaele Falato am 2021-04-06 12:05:30
Gorgoglione, Province of Matera, Basilicata, Southern Italy.

Date of discovery: March 27, morning.
Habitat: 800 m - on the outskirts of the village, hanging from a cobweb thread shortly after the entrance to a small cave (therefore, inside it). Outside is the countryside.
Dimensions: about 1 mm.

Hello to all.
This spider I can't figure out what it is.
I seem to have seen it before on this forum, but I couldn't find the thread.
Thanks for your help.
Raf

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Titel: Re: Tiny black and white spider
Beitrag von: Roman Pargätzi am 2021-04-08 00:18:04
Hi Raffaele,

If it were from our garden, it would be a spiderling of Metellina segmentata.

Cordiali saluti
Roman
Titel: Re: Tiny black and white spider
Beitrag von: Raffaele Falato am 2021-04-08 09:40:39
Ciao Roman, thank you.  :D

I don't think I would have gotten there by myself, in fact I thought by now that the spider remained without identification.

One question: how do you even indicate the species?

Thanks again and greetings.
Raf
Titel: Re: Tiny black and white spider
Beitrag von: Roman Pargätzi am 2021-04-08 11:09:39
Hi Raffaele,

I have been watching them growing up for years, but of course this does not exclude, that spiderlings of any other species which does not occur in our garden look alike.

Cordiali saluti
Roman
Titel: Re: Tiny black and white spider
Beitrag von: Raffaele Falato am 2021-04-08 11:30:20
Thanks for the reply, Roman.

Since I believe, like you, that my sling is Metellina, for safety I would file it as sp.

Greetings from southern Italy and stay healthy.
Raf
Titel: Re: Tiny black and white spider
Beitrag von: Ulrich Kursawe am 2021-04-08 12:38:25
Hi Raf,

since you found that spider in a cave, I am not sure, if you can really exclude other genera, e.g. Meta menardi or similar species. This publication, for example, shows a spiderling of Meta menardi, which, on a first glance, looks also similar to "your" specimen:

https://brill.com/view/journals/beh/156/10/article-p969_1.xml?language=en  (figure 5)

Greetings, Uli
Titel: Re: Tiny black and white spider
Beitrag von: Raffaele Falato am 2021-04-08 14:01:57
Uli, you are a magician (Roman, please, take a look at the link, what do you think?).
The spider in fig. 5 is the same as mine, even the instar is indicated, and the linked work perfectly describes the modus vivendi of Meta menardi's slings in their early instars of life. Everything fits together. I am pleasantly surprised.
At this point I really believe that there are no longer many doubts: Meta menardi, sling at 2nd instar; perhaps with cf., not knowing the bourneti slings . Wow.

Thanks again.
Raf
Titel: Re: Tiny black and white spider
Beitrag von: Raffaele Falato am 2021-04-08 16:37:37
I will be my age but I'm not stoned yet.  :)

I remember seeing the spider in the forum, well I found the threads (one inside the other, like matryoshkas)

https://forum.arages.de/index.php?topic=7819.msg51453#msg51453

Meta menardi, full stop.

Raf
Titel: Re: Tiny black and white spider => Meta menardi
Beitrag von: Simeon Indzhov am 2021-04-08 17:06:42
How do you exclude the juveniles of Meta bourneti at least?
Simeon
Titel: Re: Tiny black and white spider => Meta menardi
Beitrag von: Jonathan Neumann am 2021-04-08 17:14:09
Zitat
Nielsen (1932: The Biology of spiders) writes that the juveniles can be found in the entrance of caves in numbers and outside caves in small crevices in walls etc., and that they are not as dependent on darkness and moist as the adults (but this concerns only the few first instars).

This was very interesting for me, but makes sense as the juveniles are responsible for dispersal.
lg,
jonathan
Titel: Re: Tiny black and white spider => Meta menardi
Beitrag von: Raffaele Falato am 2021-04-08 18:17:17
Dear Simeon, the question must not be asked to me but to Niclas, Aloys, Michael or to the authors of the work linked by Uli; it is they who have determined these spiders as menardi and not bourneti, despite bourneti is present in Germany.
They must have certainly had their good reasons.
I simply joined the absolute majority.
Have you ever seen bourneti slings? I have never met bourneti here and I do not know if it is present, menardi yes, several times.
But if you want, I have no problem adding a cf., only that you will have to change the titles of the other threads as well.
Raf
Titel: Re: Tiny black and white spider => Meta menardi
Beitrag von: Ulrich Kursawe am 2021-04-08 18:28:57
Well, I think the only way to be sure is to determine the female that built the cocoon and then let it hatch under controlled conditions. That way, you can make sure what comes out of it. I assume, that was the way the authors of the publication did it, but AFAIK it is not mentioned explicitly in the text.

Greetings, Uli
Titel: Re: Tiny black and white spider => Meta menardi
Beitrag von: Roman Pargätzi am 2021-04-09 21:18:10
Hi everybody,

At least the resemblance of Raffaele’s spiderling and the one shown in the Meta menardi-site is stunning. Actually I also wanted to write, that our spiderlings miss the the black dots in the front of the back, that’s the only difference; but I was distracted by something else and then I forgot to mention it.

Cordiali saluti,
Roman
Titel: Re: Tiny black and white spider => Meta menardi
Beitrag von: Tobias Bauer am 2021-04-13 13:12:58
Dear Simeon, the question must not be asked to me but to Niclas, Aloys, Michael or to the authors of the work linked by Uli; it is they who have determined these spiders as menardi and not bourneti, despite bourneti is present in Germany.
They must have certainly had their good reasons.
I simply joined the absolute majority.
Have you ever seen bourneti slings? I have never met bourneti here and I do not know if it is present, menardi yes, several times.
But if you want, I have no problem adding a cf., only that you will have to change the titles of the other threads as well.
Raf

Yes, in Germany. But in Italy Meta bourneti might be more abundant. Simeon is, therefore, completely right, especially because South Italy is not densely sampled (as most of Germany).
Titel: Re: Tiny black and white spider => Meta menardi
Beitrag von: Raffaele Falato am 2021-04-13 13:46:59
Ok Tobias, no problem.
Please, change the thread title yourself as you see fit.

Regards.
Raf